Code Spaces -Out of Business-

Ben Thoele · June 23, 2014, 10:31:20 AM

I have a question for those in the online environment. How many have a offline backup of your data?

Would you be protected if the same thing that happened to Code Spaces happened to your cloud?

http://www.codespaces.com/

http://windowsitpro.com/cloud/cloud-casualty-forces-code-spaces-out-business

Thanks

Jeff Golas · June 23, 2014, 10:52:12 AM

It sounds to me like they just either got lazy, or busy, or both. Its important to diversify, and its also important to consider an "exit" strategy. The "cloud" offers the ability to provision services quickly, but you can bet the house that in terms of cancelling or exiting, you're not going to get the same level of support to get your data back.

Granted the answer I've heard from the bigwigs is that what contracts are for - but this is a prime example, that other than suing the pants off the vendor, you're not getting any data back.

Jeff Golas · June 23, 2014, 10:57:18 AM

PS - It will be interesting to see if Amazon steps up to recover their data, but then again, they may want this as an example to others.

Jeff Zylstra · June 23, 2014, 11:04:47 AM

Quote from: Jeff Golas on June 23, 2014, 10:52:12 AM
It sounds to me like they just either got lazy, or busy, or both. Its important to diversify, and its also important to consider an "exit" strategy. The "cloud" offers the ability to provision services quickly, but you can bet the house that in terms of cancelling or exiting, you're not going to get the same level of support to get your data back.

Granted the answer I've heard from the bigwigs is that what contracts are for - but this is a prime example, that other than suing the pants off the vendor, you're not getting any data back.

Well said, Jeff. I guess my question would be, even if you'r BFFs with the cloud company that is hosting your data, would they give you access to download that data on any kind of a regular basis, and how would you go about doing something like this?

Since they house many company's data, I would think that they would see your request as a "threat" to the security of other people's data, or wouldn't like the drain on bandwidth. How would you even do this without downloading the data directly from them, and how would that affect bandwidth?

The other issue is, if you have to sue someone to get your data back, lawsuits take an incredible amount of time and you'd be out of business long before it was ever settled. Someone else may physically have your data, or lay claim to it in a bankruptcy or privacy litigation with the same result. Sorry, I'm keeping our data.

I'm speaking of cloud hosting companies, not cloud storage and backup companies that would allow me to keep a physical copy of my data. I assume that you are as well?

Jeff Golas · June 23, 2014, 11:21:18 AM

I guess the discussion applies across the board. Let's realistically use Applied as an example. Could this happen to them, for TAM/Epic online users? For the money we're spending I sure hope not, and also not using a widely public and popular service should make a difference as well, but are they? Just like Code Spaces, Applied may have their own servers, but I'd be willing to bet their hosted in someone else's data center.

Mark · June 23, 2014, 11:30:46 AM

It sounds like they either weren't paying Amazon for some sort of backup service or they were depending solely on Amazon's redundancy and calling it their own.

Quote from: Windows IT ProThe unfortunate thing here is that part of Code Spaces' appeal was that the company promoted full redundancy, duplication, and distribution of the data across three different geographical datacenters."

Amazon has this redundancy, yes. But They should be looked at as one datacenter. This is a perfect example of that. This is Amazon's redundancy to offer you, not your redundancy to offer 3rd parties (clients).

Example 1: Amazon has a failure of some sort that effects a single location - Code Spaces as the client is not effected thanks to Amazon's redundancy.

Example 2: Code Spaces has a "failure" - Amazon replicates this "failure" to all redundant locations.

Amazon see's your "infrastructure" as a file. When changes are made to that file, those changes are replicated. This is how it's supposed to work.

So what Code Spaces needed was an off-site backup, and/or a 3rd Party. They needed to have separate vendors - OR at least separate Amazon accounts to achieve this.

Follow? Agree? Confused?

Bob · June 23, 2014, 11:48:10 AM

Doesn't concern me one bit. Anyone who puts all their eggs in one basket for a backup solution would be foolish and let's just say it plain stupid! Whether it's just a small business user to a corporate company.

Every responsible person doing business should have multiple layers of back up. From basics like shadow copy on server for quick immediate recovery, to physical on site backup (stored off site of course) to a cloud verifying that cloud service has more than one data center. Cloud is often the last resort for recovery not the 1st. These stories don't worry me one bit nor will they change my opinion of having a cloud backup as one of my layers of protection/convenience.

Billy Welsh · June 23, 2014, 12:16:41 PM

Bob,

If you are Epic/TAM on-line, for that piece at least you don't have a choice other than to put all your eggs in Applied's basket.

Jeff Zylstra · June 23, 2014, 12:21:20 PM

Quote from: Jeff Golas on June 23, 2014, 11:21:18 AM
I guess the discussion applies across the board. Let's realistically use Applied as an example. Could this happen to them, for TAM/Epic online users? For the money we're spending I sure hope not, and also not using a widely public and popular service should make a difference as well, but are they? Just like Code Spaces, Applied may have their own servers, but I'd be willing to bet their hosted in someone else's data center.

I was thinking of TAM/EPIC Online, and thinking the same things you were. That they may or may not actually entirely rely on in-house data centers. Jeff, didn't you say you were going to the Amazon Web Services Conference to learn a bit more? I'm guessing that will be a VERY interesting conference if they ever find out what happened, how it happened and they're willing to talk about it.

Ben Thoele · June 23, 2014, 12:31:39 PM

Let's put aside the fact that we know that Code Spaces may have made some mistakes. After all could you tell me which vendors you have right now that are a ticking time bomb? Or which servers will eventually break? That's why we have backups and insurance.

We are, after all independent insurance agencies, we are the experts in risk management. And yet the dominate vendor in the independent insurance agency management system vertical has made it clear that all it's customers should host all their data in it's data center. Huhh?

Could you imagine if this dominate vendors business was changing and it decided to open a commercial bank. And what was different about this bank was you couldn't really withdrawal your money, transfer it to another bank, and if you did your money wasn't any good anyway. Would anyone bank there?

I think the modern internet cloud is great! But like banking I would like to be able to retain control over my data.

Billy Welsh · June 23, 2014, 12:53:15 PM

If I recall correctly, the Epic contract included a provision that the data was ours and we could get a copy upon termination of the contract.

But let's face it - if the contract is terminated by bankruptcy or some other major event on their end, methinks that will be very difficult to get.

Bob · June 23, 2014, 01:15:38 PM

Quote from: Billy Welsh on June 23, 2014, 12:16:41 PM
Bob,

If you are Epic/TAM on-line, for that piece at least you don't have a choice other than to put all your eggs in Applied's basket.

That would be a gamble I suppose but goes again to what I said, they have obligation to provide multi-layers of backup protection. Often this means several data centers in different physical locations. Most online products do just that. Even that said, this is not enough for me. I would not jump on board unless I had a way to backup up my data for my own piece of mind.

If using this example this is why many in IT refuse to go with tam or epic online. If I were going to they would first have to show me the redundancy as well as provide me a means of backing up my data. If they can't nor won't allow it, I'd never use nor allow it. I'm not going to settle on someone's word they have me covered. Anything cloud related should be backed up and not solely trust that as your only means of protection. Before I would consider TAM/EPIC online it would have to meet these obligations or the product wouldn't be on my radar and if forced, I'd find a replacement. Not giving up my ability to protect myself.

Banks are different they are FDIC and our losses covered under that. My soon to be son-in-law is VP for a bank and trust me it's used a lot by banks with all the Cyber attacks, robberies and more. They don't bat an eye at. They know losses are federally insured.

I guess my answer is in line with Ben that I have to have some control but I don't expect the vendor to provide me 100% solution nor would I go into it thinking I could trust them to do so. It's my responsibility to back up my own decisions. Example would I trust only Drop Box with my documents? Heck no and if I did I deserve to lose everything. I'd have it backed up elsewhere as well. I don't know enough about TAM/EPIC Online but if I can't get a backup of my data and have to trust Applieds word, I would have to decline. Everything I do I need multiple safeguards not just their word. If something breaks and out of my control, I'm still the person responsible and taking the heat. For that reason redundancy it built into everything I do and choose. Everything is vulnerable and sooner or later will feel it. Applied too. This is why added layers of action are needed in most everything you do. JMO and how I think.

Jeff Golas · June 23, 2014, 01:27:58 PM

Yes and this makes me want to go even more. I got the OK from the boss so I will likely be attending. I just want to make sure its not a giant infomercial (to a certain degree anyway - they all are in reality).

Keep up the discussion!

Jeff

Quote from: Jeff Zylstra on June 23, 2014, 12:21:20 PM
Quote from: Jeff Golas on June 23, 2014, 11:21:18 AM
I guess the discussion applies across the board. Let's realistically use Applied as an example. Could this happen to them, for TAM/Epic online users? For the money we're spending I sure hope not, and also not using a widely public and popular service should make a difference as well, but are they? Just like Code Spaces, Applied may have their own servers, but I'd be willing to bet their hosted in someone else's data center.

I was thinking of TAM/EPIC Online, and thinking the same things you were. That they may or may not actually entirely rely on in-house data centers. Jeff, didn't you say you were going to the Amazon Web Services Conference to learn a bit more? I'm guessing that will be a VERY interesting conference if they ever find out what happened, how it happened and they're willing to talk about it.

Billy Welsh · June 23, 2014, 03:21:16 PM

Quote from: Bob Connor on June 23, 2014, 01:15:38 PM
Quote from: Billy Welsh on June 23, 2014, 12:16:41 PM
Bob,

If you are Epic/TAM on-line, for that piece at least you don't have a choice other than to put all your eggs in Applied's basket.

That would be a gamble I suppose but goes again to what I said, they have obligation to provide multi-layers of backup protection. Often this means several data centers in different physical locations. Most online products do just that. Even that said, this is not enough for me. I would not jump on board unless I had a way to backup up my data for my own piece of mind.

If using this example this is why many in IT refuse to go with tam or epic online. If I were going to they would first have to show me the redundancy as well as provide me a means of backing up my data. If they can't nor won't allow it, I'd never use nor allow it. I'm not going to settle on someone's word they have me covered. Anything cloud related should be backed up and not solely trust that as your only means of protection. Before I would consider TAM/EPIC online it would have to meet these obligations or the product wouldn't be on my radar and if forced, I'd find a replacement. Not giving up my ability to protect myself.

Banks are different they are FDIC and our losses covered under that. My soon to be son-in-law is VP for a bank and trust me it's used a lot by banks with all the Cyber attacks, robberies and more. They don't bat an eye at. They know losses are federally insured.

I guess my answer is in line with Ben that I have to have some control but I don't expect the vendor to provide me 100% solution nor would I go into it thinking I could trust them to do so. It's my responsibility to back up my own decisions. Example would I trust only Drop Box with my documents? Heck no and if I did I deserve to lose everything. I'd have it backed up elsewhere as well. I don't know enough about TAM/EPIC Online but if I can't get a backup of my data and have to trust Applieds word, I would have to decline. Everything I do I need multiple safeguards not just their word. If something breaks and out of my control, I'm still the person responsible and taking the heat. For that reason redundancy it built into everything I do and choose. Everything is vulnerable and sooner or later will feel it. Applied too. This is why added layers of action are needed in most everything you do. JMO and how I think.

All excellent points. However, the small shops get pushed into a corner and have little choice other than taking on this risk if they want the benefits of Epic. Between A$'s attitude and the costs of their minimum specs, it is a tough pill to swallow.

Bob · June 23, 2014, 03:56:39 PM

Honestly if I was small and this was my only answer from Applied to go online, I would recommend they use product called InStar. Better than TAM and I stake my name on it. We only came back because they were Borged and I distrust the Borg. Product far better than TAM. When we came back it was and is more work than when we worked with InStar. It ran on any OS, was just fine on older equipment too. Small foot print. Update one record it updates "ALL" records imagine that.. Cost less back then too. Always options!