Ascnet - Fast Track Guide

[Donna Syroid]

Hey friends - we just went to 10.x and I am wondering about the Ascnet Fast Track Guide.  It seems a bit pricey for something written in 2009....but then again I'm sure most people are already on the 10.x series.  Your thoughts.

Donna Syroid

[Jim Jensen]

Considering 11.0 is on the horizon, I'd have to agree. I've not seen this item myself, but I generally have had an issue with having to buy manuals that should be provided by Applied to begin with. The original "manuals" I received from Applied in 1996 or 1997 are almost irrelevant today and were pretty thin-surface material to begin with. I don't know that I've seen any updated versions of them since - I don't think the online documentation has the same amount of detail, but I could be mistaken.

Documentation has long been one of the weaker areas of Applied. I've also felt that membership fees for Ascnet should help cover that cost of providing additional documentation tools, if needed, not a platform to sell them at reasonably high prices. The cost/benefit of the accounting manual was disappointing to me - the only one I've bought as a result.

[Todd Arnold]

I debated letting this go as there is no way for me to respond without sounding like a dick.  But I just can't, and my not responding isn't going to fool anyone into thinking I'm not one anyway....

Jim - if you've purchased or reviewed something authored by AB Solutions and don't like it, I'm fine with you voicing your complaint about it; we don't pretend that we can please everyone or that we're the last word in quality.  But if you haven't even seen the Fast Track Guide, I'd really appreciate it if you didn't imply that it's quality or value is comparable to products that we didn't create simply because of a common distributor.

[Lance Bateman]

Todd, I think he was under the impression the Fast Track Guide was also by Applied, not AB Solutions.

[Jim Jensen]

Todd, my issue is not whether you were fairly compensated or not. I never said the Fast Track Guide is good or bad. I expressed my exprience with manual I did purchase. My issue on the whole is that

#1. Applied should provide better documentation to begin with, which has nothing to do with your documentation (maybe they should pay someone like yourself to create theirs). The whole software industry seems to be providing less documentation on how to use their products.

#2. I purchased the accounting manual, which I've been told was created by someone outside of Ascnet for a fee, and I was greatly disappointed by it. Since we don't get to 'preview' the content before purchase and they don't say who wrote which ones, I've no idea whether one is better than the other, so my opinion about my experience stands as just that. I mentioned that I've not seen Fast Track, but was disappointed with the Accounting one. That gives the caveat.

#3. I've talked with other Applied agents who tell me they don't join Ascnet because they feel like paying for membership should create some collective information, including additional documentation if we can do so. I helped to write the download guide and it's provided at no charge to members. That's what I'd like to see more of. I think the dowload guide that's free gives more 'how-to' info than the accounting manual I paid for. 

It's not to discount what consultants offer, but a users group created for the users shouldn't mean that it's simply a marketplace to buy other material. the people I've spoken with don't like that one must pay to be a member, then if you want some additional documentation that comes through Ascnet, you have to pay again and it's not insignicant costs. 

By all means, expound on why the Fast-Track guide is good, I'll not throw stones at your response. However, I will stand ground on my experience.

[Jeff Zylstra]

I agree with Jim that Applied needs to provide more help and instruction, and "how-to" guides, and that they shouldn't cost an arm and a leg to do it.  I also think that an outside vendor or vendors, could do this better and perhaps cheaper than Applied. 

Applied barely provides help screens, much less how-to information.  It's a pain in the rear to write .CHM files (not to mention costly for the software), especially since these should be there in the first place.  If outside vendor(s) were paid a nominal fee on a per license basis, the volume would be there to offer a good product at a reasonable price, and also to maintain those help files for future versions. 

I would consider paying $200 for an online help file that included all aspects of TAM, but I won't pay $150 each for separate manuals.  If ASCNet and/or Applied really want to provide value added services, this would be a good start.  The paper "manuals" that we have were from version 4.0 or 5.0 in 1992.  It's time to do something with this.

[Jan Regnier]

AND the paper manuals that came with the "original" version of TAM (for us it was 3D or E or some where in that range) where pretty much useless  - I often said Applied should provide that 1st week (that's what we had) of training and then in 6 mo do a re-visit for another week because by that time users know how to use the system now but need to fine tune or have "how to" questions.

For all the things TAM can do (of Vision or Epic now) agencies don't utilize it to it's potential which is a GREAT reason to attend local Users group meetings!  Regardless of the reason why they don't - the info should be available easily and cost effectively for them - after all, they spent $$$$$$ purchasing the system.

[Todd Arnold]

Jim, who said anything about compensation?  My issue is just with the 'guilt by association' on its quality. 

If the topic of this thread was "ASCnet tools and Products" or some other more general topic, I would have skipped the objection part and just gone on to the parts that I agree with you on.  But the topic here is "ASCnet - Fast Track Guide" so I couldn't do that.  And it's definitely not my place to "expound on why the Fast Track guide is good"; I'm no more the right person to do that than someone who hasn't ever even seen it.

[Sherry Burrell]

I have to add that Applied has done a pretty good job with the help files in Epic.  It includes interactive videos (how to add a disbursement walks you through the steps, letting you click on certain steps in the video, etc).  The Help file open to part pertaining to the area of Epic you are in when clicking help (Opens in Policies - Help when on the Client Policy screen).   They are very good as a training tool or refresher for those processes you may not use on a regular basis.

They are strictly how to's though without the whys or what ifs. 

[Jim Jensen]

If an agency has the 9.0 version of the Fast Track Guide, is there much different in the 10.0 version,  that would make us want to pay full price for the updated version? My guess is that there isn't simply an "update" to the 9.0 version that only takes care of the changes/new material for a lower cost. This comes back to the original question about the cost versus the age of 10.0 with 11.0 due out soon. Would it make more sense to simply wait until 11.0 is out? I don't know 11.0 current schedule and what your lead time is on when you offer the next version of your documentation. Todd, this isn't a bait question or criticism - just thinking through as a person who determines these expenditures. I'm sure the production cost for you isn't much different based on the version, so you may not be able to reasonably offer an "upgrade price" if you already own an eariler version.

[Todd Arnold]

Don't worry about me thinking that you are baiting me or anything Jim – I've read enough of your posts to know you aren't that type. 

This is a good question.  And I want to lead off by mentioning that I'm not happy about the way this works.  There isn't any sort of provision in the contract that allows for a reduced price on upgrades at this time.  So if you buy the version 10 copy, then want to buy the version 11 copy in November, you'd have to buy it at the full price again.  Definitely has to be taken into account when deciding to purchase it.

I would really prefer that it just be an included benefit as part of the membership dues - so the original and all updates are made available to everyone.  Or have a two tier membership where those who would like to have all the tools, the updated, handouts, etc. that ASCnet offers would just pay higher annual dues to get everything.  Or baring that to have the guide be on a subscription model of some sort so the upfront cost is lower but there is a recurring annual cost that includes all of the updates.  Or if none of those could be made to work then just a reduced price for buying an update.  But there have been very solid objections to all of those ideas based on either cost or administrative/tracking difficulties that blocked any of those from even being seriously considered.

The production cost for the original version of the Fast Track was very high for AB.  On a pure cost/reward basis, we now know that putting that kind of effort into a product for ASCnet cannot be justified on a financial basis.  However, updating it for new versions of TAM isn't anywhere near as time consuming; like with any document, even if you change every image and word it is always easier to update or modify than it is to create.  Sometimes there are updates that are larger than normal; major accounting changes, the addition of Word 2007 for form-letter and proposal setup, and others of that sort are examples.  But even those require nowhere near the time that the original did.  So selling updates to an agency that has already purchased the product is justifiable from our standpoint.  But I have to tell you that I'd rather go in for a half dozen root canals than begin redrafting another agreement with ASCnet.

The entire topic of ASCnet, education, and products is one that I've put far too much time into thinking about over the years both as a 3rd party consultant and in my roles on ASCnet committees.  So I have a lot that I'd like to say in response to some of the other comments on this thread.  But I'm having a hard time doing so without it sounding like I am criticizing either Applied or ASCnet, and that is not warranted on this topic; ASCnet is doing what they can with the budget they have to work with, and I agree with Sherry that Applied is doing a much better job recently with the improvements to help files as well as all of the materials available on Applied University.  So I guess I'll just have to stop here for now.

[Jeff Zylstra]

Thank you for input and candor, Todd.  It's good that we're having this conversation.  It has been needed for a long time. 

I've always marveled at the cost of training materials and lack of help screens for TAM.  Whether planned or not, the net effect of this feels like a move to force users to buy expensive training software, videos or on-line training through ASCNet, or send new users to training classes at Applied.  All seem like expensive options, especially when most software packages include detailed context sensitive help screens, online manuals or forums, etc...    I realize that TAM is a bit more involved than Quicken, or MS Word or most other software packages.  I'm just saying that the standard and expectations have been set by what the majority of software packages offer. 

I think that it's time to look at both the included help manual system, and also the training model for TAM and other systems.   There seems to be a vacuum of action and leadership on these topics, and I think that a cooperative effort with assigned responsibilities might be in order between Applied, ASCNet and third party vendors and trainers.   

I understand that 3rd party vendor involvement may have some minor conflicts of interest, but that should be balanced with what they bring to the table in their knowledge and experience.  They know the issues of the past which gives them some insight in what needs to be done or needs to be avoided.   I think this is a good start.

P.S.  Kudos to Andy and Applied for not shying away from the controversies of social media and this forum.  Sometimes the public airing of problems or difficulties is a painful process, but those who endure it and listen to the criticisms are better for it in the end.

[Jim Jensen]

Ditto to Jeff's response, but more importantly, it also gives a great peperspective for Donna to consider - how long will they wait to go to 11.x and such to help them make their purchase decision.

Todd, I don't wish 1 root canal on anyone, let alone 6! There are a lot of pieces involved in the whole picture - what's a fair membership cost? What's expected versus what is viable? Do we still look to Summits and TenCons that have a lot of expense versus other means through webinars and online interaction - what's the right balance? Certainly not everyone will be satisfied.

Now - had anyone out here purchased and used the Fast Track Guide tht can offer their experience? I've already obtained a better view of the product and it's workings than I had, but I don't want to bury that part of the question.