NAS for VM Backup

Mark · October 24, 2011, 09:27:13 AM

Ok, so I'm having a difficult time making decisions this Monday morning.

I'm in a Vmware environment and I'm not yet backing up the VM files (just doing file level backup with tape still). I'm working on the budget for next year and want to get a NAS to backup my VMs to (and some other data).

Thing is, I can't decide if I should get something portable or not. I like rack mounted stuff for the look, convenience, etc. BUT, I know it would be beneficial to be able to grab what is essentially my backup device and go (if I were to get a more portable workgroup-type NAS). I just don't know if that would ever be the case. I can't say that I have ever said to myself "I wish I could grab all 6TB of this data and take it with me."

Thoughts?

Jeff Zylstra · October 24, 2011, 09:49:27 AM

Ask someone who has had to "grab it and run". The "it" being their IT - servers, backups, etc.... Very few of have ever had "it" hit the fan in a big way. I would have to think that an event like that changes you and how you do business. I think that Billy has faced this, and I'm sure others here have as well. Maybe it's time to hear those stories again.

Mark · October 24, 2011, 10:12:48 AM

I could see the need if we were on the coast or something, but here in good ol' Wisconsin.... idk why I'd be running... lol

If I had another location, I'd probably get a portable one just for the fact that I could easily take it with me to the other location. Right now, we don't have one. I plan to backup to the NAS then copy to portable USB drives to take off-site.

I think the portable ones are cheaper though, so now that I am half way through my coffee this morning, I think I'm leaning towards the portable anyway. I'm trying to neaten up the rack though, not add shelves and misc to the mess.

Billy Welsh · October 24, 2011, 11:05:13 AM

Quote from: Jeff Zylstra on October 24, 2011, 09:49:27 AM
Ask someone who has had to "grab it and run". The "it" being their IT - servers, backups, etc.... Very few of have ever had "it" hit the fan in a big way. I would have to think that an event like that changes you and how you do business. I think that Billy has faced this, and I'm sure others here have as well. Maybe it's time to hear those stories again.

"Grab it and run" in NOT a good strategy for Hurricanes. Not even mediocre. And if you've never tested restoring ALL of your data from tape, it may be an eye-opening experience. It was for us.

Now, all that being said, our primary backup device is a non-rack-mount Buffalo NAS - works very well and does not break the bank. We could grab it and run if needed because it is stand-alone, but that is not really part of the plan. Instead we replicate the backups to an identical unit off-site, which happens to be our designated evacuation location. The only scenario I can see a grab-n-go is if we have time to backup new TAM data from the middle of the day before leaving while also not being able to do or rely upon the replication. In the event of a fire, for example, ignoring the stupidity of risking one's life for a NAS, I would have no reason to do this anyway as there is none of the current day's data on it. Our non-TAM data is replicating real-time to a backup server in the evac location. We have discussed taking snapshots during the day of TAM data but have not implemented yet.

In your case it may be worth considering something like this if it fits the budget - assuming adequate bandwidth at your house, for example, you could automatically replicate and get a copy off-site w/o having to lug USB drives home every day.

Mark · October 24, 2011, 11:09:30 AM

so, the main reason it's not a rack-mounted device is cost? That makes sense! lol

idk about the replication though - not sure if that's necessary. I will continue to do file-level backups to tape, but want my VM's also backed up for ease of restore.

Thanks for the reply!

Billy Welsh · October 24, 2011, 11:42:34 AM

Actually cannot answer the rack vs. standalone ?. My contract techs wanted the stand-alone Buffalo and we had room in rack so I did not go any further with it. Could not tell you if Buffalo makes rack mounts nor what they cost.

Mark · October 24, 2011, 11:46:48 AM

Quote from: Billy Welsh on October 24, 2011, 11:42:34 AM
Could not tell you if Buffalo makes rack mounts nor what they cost.

I had priced some Buffalos prior to posting and it looks like the rack-mount stuff is just a little pricier (as in double the price). This isn't a production device with a heavy access load, so I think the smaller ones have enough meat for what I'd need.

I'm not a heavy eater.

Jeff Golas · October 24, 2011, 11:50:00 AM

I'm in the exact same boat...and for now my crappy preliminary plans are to use a tower PC with SATA bays and 1tb sata drives. Cheap and works. I have these bays I got from Micro Center that are pretty cool - no drawers needed, you just slide the drive in and lock the door on the back and it does it's thing. Tried hot-swapping them a couple times and so far so good...you can label them as removable in Xp to help with the write-caching.

Jeff Golas · October 24, 2011, 11:51:52 AM

Then insteall Veeam on the tower and use it to yank the VMs every so often. Depending on how much room you have on your datastore you can yank the VMs and take a snapshot, then backup the differential every so often.

Mark · October 24, 2011, 11:54:36 AM

Quote from: Jeff Golas on October 24, 2011, 11:51:52 AM
Then insteall Veeam on the tower and use it to yank the VMs every so often. Depending on how much room you have on your datastore you can yank the VMs and take a snapshot, then backup the differential every so often.

I am definitely increasing my datastore ASAP.

Jeff Zylstra · October 24, 2011, 11:55:49 AM

Mark, a lot of things could happen in Wisconsin. You have tornadoes, and earthquakes are still a possibility as well. Illinois can tell you about earthquakes. You could suffer a catastrophic beer shortage, or your favorite football team could lose a game and be kicked out of BCS contention and riots could ensue. Sorry, Mark. I don't think you're a rabid college football fan, but I know that Billy is a rabid LSU fan.

I didn't literally mean the "grab it and run" part, but I did pull my server out and take it home once out of fear of it being destroyed. I've never run my network by doing this, but there is some "plug and play" type benefits if you could make it happen. My doomsday location is the basement of my house. There is enough room there for emergency operation of our agency, and I do have an old server there that I could plug in and run a network from using again, old workstations. Not optimal, but feasible.

Mark · October 24, 2011, 12:00:21 PM

Quote from: Jeff Zylstra on October 24, 2011, 11:55:49 AM
Mark, a lot of things could happen in Wisconsin. You have tornadoes, and earthquakes are still a possibility as well.

Right, but in any of those events -- I'm not grabbing anything. And, there isn't usually a few hours notice of them either. I was just trying to determine if there was a really good reason to get one NOT rack-mountable - and there is: cost. lol

8TB Rack-mountable "workgroup" NAS: $1,399
8TB Non-Rack-Mounted "workgroup" NAS: $799

Any other benefits are just a bonus.

Thanks.

Jeff Golas · October 24, 2011, 12:16:41 PM

4 screws and most rack things become portable things :-)

Maybe at the next Tencon we should have IT olympics LOL. How fast can you pull a rack device...how fast can you install Windows....hahaha.

Billy Welsh · October 24, 2011, 12:40:12 PM

Quote from: Jeff Zylstra on October 24, 2011, 11:55:49 AM
Mark, a lot of things could happen in Wisconsin. You have tornadoes, and earthquakes are still a possibility as well. Illinois can tell you about earthquakes. You could suffer a catastrophic beer shortage, or your favorite football team could lose a game and be kicked out of BCS contention and riots could ensue. Sorry, Mark. I don't think you're a rabid college football fan, but I know that Billy is a rabid LSU fan.

I didn't literally mean the "grab it and run" part, but I did pull my server out and take it home once out of fear of it being destroyed. I've never run my network by doing this, but there is some "plug and play" type benefits if you could make it happen. My doomsday location is the basement of my house. There is enough room there for emergency operation of our agency, and I do have an old server there that I could plug in and run a network from using again, old workstations. Not optimal, but feasible.

Just wondering what everyone will be doing for the NCAA National Championship on 11/5?

"Rabid" is a stretch but I do get quite excited about LSU football even though I am not an alum because like so many things in this goofy state the success should have happened long ago. The talent was always there but the administration/coaching were sorely lacking. So it is gratifying to see LSU football where it should have been years ago.

For Katrina, grab it and evacuate was part of the plan. On Friday evening the word from everyone - Hurricane Center, FEMA, local gov't, state gov't, local weather guys, and landlord - was to keep an eye on it just in case but it was NOT going to be an issue for New Orleans. Less than 24 hours later they ALL did a 180 and told everyone to get out. Once I had my personal affairs in order and a safe place to sleep (which took HOURS to find), I went to the office to get the server. And guess what? Based on their standard published procedure, the building had been locked down. NO EXCEPTIONS. I called the manager who I know well and all she could say was "sorry." So I had to leave the server at the mercy of the storm. Luckily it was unscathed, but it was 2 weeks(!) before I could get it and confirm that. In the interim I learned that tape backups can be very unreliable. And many other things.

Mark · October 24, 2011, 12:43:31 PM

Quote from: Billy Welsh on October 24, 2011, 12:40:12 PM
In the interim I learned that tape backups can be very unreliable. And many other things.

Tape is only 50% reliable, but is still the standard. Best advice I'd say is to both test your backups and replace tapes often!

Billy Welsh · October 24, 2011, 12:46:06 PM

I just don't understand why disks are not the standard. The prices are way down, you can set up RAID arrays with hot-swapping, and they are quicker.

Mark · October 24, 2011, 12:47:37 PM

Quote from: Billy Welsh on October 24, 2011, 12:46:06 PM
I just don't understand why disks are not the standard. The prices are way down, you can set up RAID arrays with hot-swapping, and they are quicker.

Dunno. I wonder the same.

Hans Manhave · October 24, 2011, 01:50:23 PM

So far we have been doing fine with the Imation RDX system of hard drives to backup. I regularly use the backup to recover something, look up in short time history, or just use while others are tying up a file in real time. Disks transport easily, appear to be able to handle the Texas summer temps on a vehicle etc. I do have a secondary external device for it also so I can restore on other machines.

Jeff Zylstra · October 24, 2011, 03:03:34 PM

Quote from: Billy Welsh on October 24, 2011, 12:40:12 PM
Quote from: Jeff Zylstra on October 24, 2011, 11:55:49 AM
Mark, a lot of things could happen in Wisconsin. You have tornadoes, and earthquakes are still a possibility as well. Illinois can tell you about earthquakes. You could suffer a catastrophic beer shortage, or your favorite football team could lose a game and be kicked out of BCS contention and riots could ensue. Sorry, Mark. I don't think you're a rabid college football fan, but I know that Billy is a rabid LSU fan.

I didn't literally mean the "grab it and run" part, but I did pull my server out and take it home once out of fear of it being destroyed. I've never run my network by doing this, but there is some "plug and play" type benefits if you could make it happen. My doomsday location is the basement of my house. There is enough room there for emergency operation of our agency, and I do have an old server there that I could plug in and run a network from using again, old workstations. Not optimal, but feasible.

Just wondering what everyone will be doing for the NCAA National Championship on 11/5? "Rabid" is a stretch but I do get quite excited about LSU football even though I am not an alum because like so many things in this goofy state the success should have happened long ago. The talent was always there but the administration/coaching were sorely lacking. So it is gratifying to see LSU football where it should have been years ago.

For Katrina, grab it and evacuate was part of the plan. On Friday evening the word from everyone - Hurricane Center, FEMA, local gov't, state gov't, local weather guys, and landlord - was to keep an eye on it just in case but it was NOT going to be an issue for New Orleans. Less than 24 hours later they ALL did a 180 and told everyone to get out. Once I had my personal affairs in order and a safe place to sleep (which took HOURS to find), I went to the office to get the server. And guess what? Based on their standard published procedure, the building had been locked down. NO EXCEPTIONS. I called the manager who I know well and all she could say was "sorry." So I had to leave the server at the mercy of the storm. Luckily it was unscathed, but it was 2 weeks(!) before I could get it and confirm that. In the interim I learned that tape backups can be very unreliable. And many other things.

I love college football because of its unpredictability. One day you're talking trash, the next you're picking yourself up off the ground. I really don't like it when players talk trash, so I was predicting that Michigan State would get their "come-upance". I also like Wisconsin and their coach, so it gave me no pleasure to see them go down.

I will absolutely be watching the Tigers vs Bama. As you know, both Nick Saban (former Michigan State coach) and Les Miles (former Michigan assistant) have deep ties to the state of Michigan. Since I'm with 99% of the rest of the world and hate Saban, I say GEAUX TIGERS! Besides, you just gotta wonder what the Mad Hatter is going to do next!

Billy Welsh · October 24, 2011, 04:21:01 PM

Well, I can't say I like the fact that we had to go to Michigan to get our program right!

And I am no longer a fan of Saban, but I do give him credit for his results and for getting LSU where it is. He obviously has some serious character flaws and I would not want him back, nor would I want him coaching my kid. I initially had my doubts about Miles (and even now I question his sanity sometimes), but it is no longer true that he is benefitting from Saban's kids - they are all long gone and the success has largely continued so he gets some kudos too.

I too love college football because of the unpredictability. There are a lot of kids playing from the heart as opposed to playing for a potential large NFL paycheck which gives you the big upsets.